16:57 < zodbot> Meeting started Thu Sep  9 23:57:58 2010 UTC.  The chair is jadudm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:57 < zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:58 < jadudm> If I knew more about zodbot, I'd add other chairs. But, I don't.
16:58 -!- rdcrng [~rad@aldenv105.allegheny.edu] has joined #fedora-websites
16:58 < jadudm> #link http://wiki.rockalypse.org/HCD/Website_Testing_Resources
16:58 < jadudm> #link http://wiki.rockalypse.org/HCD/Website_Testing_Needs
16:58 < jadudm> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Website_redesign_2009_requirements#Tasks
16:59 -!- daMaestro|isBack [~jon@denver.beatport.com] has joined #fedora-websites
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17:00 < mizmo> jadudm, i'd pull up the wiki page on the meeting bot but, the wiki is down :(
17:00 < mizmo> which might cause some problems here too
17:00 < mizmo> (all the mockups are on it :( )
17:00 < jadudm> The wiki page came up for me. Do you mean fp.org/wiki is down?
17:00 < mizmo> yeh
17:00 < mizmo> the fpo wiki is down
17:01 < jadudm> Oops. See what you mean.
17:01 < jadudm> Perhaps it was cached.
17:01 < jadudm> MURPHY STRIKES.
17:01 < khane> dun dun dun
17:01 < jadudm> Well, this page is in my browser (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Website_redesign_2009_requirements#Tasks)
17:01 < kauffmj> lol
17:01 < mizmo> so the fedora wiki is in a planned outage and will be out for 2 hours
17:01 < jadudm> Should I stick it in an etherpad for us to see for the time being?
17:01 < mizmo> they just took it down
17:01 < jadudm> Awesome!
17:01 < mizmo> :-/
17:01 -!- daMaestro [~jon@fedora/damaestro] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
17:02 < mizmo> i think smooge is going to try to bring it back up for us though
17:02 < jadudm> IN SOVIET FEDORA, WEBSITE COMES UP FOR YOU
17:02 < mizmo> heh
17:03 < jadudm> I pasted the website redesign 2009 requirements here: http://openetherpad.org/8CQ0kocfmC
17:03 < mizmo> awesome
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17:04 -!- yaworsw [8dc31ba4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.141.195.27.164] has joined #fedora-websites
17:04 < jadudm> I must have caught it just before it went down. So. Would you like a quick intro from who is working with you? Or, shall we take it as a given that there's a group from Allegheny here?
17:04 -!- ricky [~ricky@fedora/ricky] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
17:04 < mizmo> whatever works!
17:05 < jadudm> Would the Allegheny crew mind pasting in a link note with a pointer to your user pages on the rockalypse wiki?
17:05 < mizmo> sijis_vacation <= is on vacation, he is our main developer on the project, and Jef (who is normally in here as Schendje) is in the netherlands so he's probably sleeping now :)
17:05  * mizmo <= Máirín Duffy, fedora design team lead & Red Hat interaction designer
17:05 < jadudm> #link http://wiki.rockalypse.org/User:Jadudm
17:05 < jadudm> I'm Matt.
17:05 < kauffmj> #link http://wiki.rockalypse.org/User:Kauffmj
17:05 < khane> http://wiki.rockalypse.org/User:Khane
17:05 < kauffmj> I'm Jonathan Miller Kauffman.
17:05 < khane> I'm Evan
17:05 < hildebe> #link http://wiki.rockalypse.org/User:Hildebe
17:06 < hildebe> I'm Eric Hildebrand
17:06 < yaworsw> http://wiki.rockalypse.org/User:Yaworsw
17:06 < jadudm> khane: the #link tells zodbot to include it in the transcript all special-like.
17:06  * johnsog <- #link http://wiki.rockalypse.org/User:Johnsog
17:06 < khane> ah
17:06 < johnsog> I'm Genevieve Johnson
17:06 < rdcrng> #link http://wiki.rockalypse.org/User:Rad
17:06 < keepd> I'm Jamie Keep: http://wiki.rockalypse.org/User:Keepd
17:06 < mizmo> yaworsw, where is salamanca? im from westerlo ny
17:07 < yaworsw> #link http://wiki.rockalypse.org/User:Yaworsw
17:07 -!- mfody [~Matt@dynamic-acs-24-144-203-247.zoominternet.net] has joined #fedora-websites
17:07 < jadudm> mfody: just dropping pointers to our user pages on the wiki.
17:07 < yaworsw> its about an hour and a half south of buffalo
17:07 < mizmo> ah okay
17:07 < mizmo> (westerlo is an hour+ south west of albany)
17:07 < yaworsw> sorry my wiki page is pretty bare at this point i'll make sure to update it much more soon
17:08 < mizmo> id show you my fedora wiki page but... :-p
17:08 < yaworsw> complete other side ha
17:08 -!- rosss [~rosss@aldenv151.allegheny.edu] has joined #fedora-websites
17:08 < mizmo> yeh my bro went to geneseo though so ive driven out your way sort of before
17:09 < jadudm> Cool. That serves as an attendance of sorts, too. :)
17:09 < mizmo> have any of you heard of / used Fedora before?
17:09 < yaworsw> haha
17:09 < jadudm> (We'll catch Matt and Sam before we're done.)
17:09 < rdcrng> I have been using it for 3 years.
17:09 < rosss> I'm here
17:09 < mizmo> wow awesome
17:09 < kauffmj> i used it once
17:09 < keepd> Sams here
17:09 < jadudm> #link http://wiki.rockalypse.org/User:Rosss
17:09 < hildebe> I have it Virtualboxed, yeah
17:09 < johnsog> mismo: i have worked with fedora last semester in a class with jadudm
17:09 < mizmo> rdcrng, i really like your user page lol
17:10 < yaworsw> i only use it in the labs at school but i have ubuntu installed on my desktop... i just need a monitor for it now lol
17:10 < rdcrng> Lol, thanks. Don't really know how to make intro pages.
17:11 < jadudm> We have a pretty savvy bunch overall, in one form or another.
17:11 < rdcrng> And here's my life story kind of pages aren't my favorite.
17:11 < jadudm> I'm not 100% sure how best to run the meeting, but we'll learn.
17:12 < jadudm> I guess I can say that we're keen to do our first round of learning on usability testing on the Fedora website, and I think we've got a fairly high degree of overlap between our observations and your top ten list.
17:12 < mizmo> oooh the wiki is back up i think
17:12 < mizmo> oh okay great
17:12  * jadudm does a wiki jig
17:12 < mizmo> well can you walk me through your process so far?
17:12 < yaworsw> could you post the like the link to the wiki where we put our notes from yesterdays class?
17:12 < jadudm> I think I did at the top. I'll repeat them:
17:12 < khane> #http://wiki.rockalypse.org/HCD/Website_Testing_Needs
17:12 < jadudm> Ah, thanks.
17:13 < yaworsw> ah that was before i got here
17:13 < jadudm> And the top ten from mizmo: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Website_redesign_2009_requirements#Tasks
17:13 < jadudm> I think we missed focusing on that in our conversation.
17:13 < jadudm> Anyone want to take a stab at our process so far?
17:14 < mizmo> it looks like you started with a whiteboard discussion - http://wiki.rockalypse.org/HCD/Website_Testing_Resources
17:15 < khane> we all pretty much agreed on no 1 from mizmo's list, that was a big part of our discussion
17:15 < mizmo> and did you look at the existing www.fedoraproject.org?
17:15 < jadudm> Right. Our process was first to identify resources that would help us with doing testing, and that morphed into discussion of the fp.o site.
17:15 < yaworsw> the redesign looks much better imo
17:15 < quaid> BTW, I threw a late and slightly random insight-driven email on the related thread on the mailing list:
17:16 < quaid> #link http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/websites/2010-September/008564.html
17:16 < jadudm> Our next step was to discuss with you needs/directions/focus.
17:16  * quaid leaves that for later and returns to le lurk
17:17 < jadudm> Our next step will then be to immerse ourselves in literature regarding testing, and start cutting our teeth.
17:17 < mizmo> okay cool
17:17 < jadudm> We can easily divide into groups of 3/3/4, having 10 people.
17:17 < mizmo> each group tests a chunk of the redesign?
17:17 < jadudm> Exactly.
17:17 < mizmo> okay cool
17:18 < jadudm> (btw, team: dive in wherever/whenever.)
17:18 < quaid> jadudm: coincidentally, we need some of that "about testing" material for the "Practical OSS Exploration" textbook - I'd like a feed of your reading/research list as it becomes available.
17:18 < keepd> *dives
17:18 < mizmo> it's irc, it's supposed to be funny & chatty lol
17:18 < khane> well, what are 3 areas that you feel need the most work?
17:18  * quaid hides mizmo's PSP
17:18 < mizmo> khane, in the redesigns?
17:18 < khane> yea
17:18 < mizmo> hmm let me think
17:19 < mizmo> so i know the download pages still need a lot of work
17:19 < mizmo> we have some folks who are .... picky.... and quite particular
17:19 < khane> haha
17:19 < khane> well, hopefully we won't dissapoint
17:19  * jadudm looks at rdcrng 
17:19 < rdcrng> Yeah no kidding, we *almost* had a heated debate about it already.
17:19 < mizmo> so we did a big redesign of the download pages in our current template - it was released last may
17:20 < mizmo> and i literally got hate mail over the bittorrent link being hard to find :-p
17:20 < mizmo> whoops
17:20 < khane> we looked at the mockup pretty in-depth
17:20 < mizmo> i know there are some cases like that we're probably missing still
17:20 < mizmo> i did a blog post on it but haven't revisited those pages yet
17:20 < jadudm> do you consider download to be a space where you're happy with the design, or would you like us to put it through the paces?
17:20 < mizmo> oh please put it through the paces
17:20 < mizmo> we must be missing things
17:21 < mizmo> we were pretty aggressive in simplifying it
17:21 < mizmo> we ended up doing a patch a couple days after release for bittorrent
17:21 < mizmo> i think there are other things folks are sitll a bit ornery about in those pages
17:21 < mizmo> so
17:21 < mizmo> #1 is the download pages, i think they can still use work
17:21 < mizmo> #2 i would say is the visual design
17:22 < yaworsw> the more that i look at the features + screenshots page the more i feel like there is an overloading amount of information being thrown at the user
17:22 -!- biertie_laptop [~bert@fedora/biertie] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:22 < mizmo> i think some of the issues with the visual design - well, i'm trying to appeal to fedora's (rather recently defined) target user
17:22 < mizmo> yaworsw, (that was going to be my #3 ) :)
17:22 < mizmo> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_base
17:22 < yaworsw> i like that it gives options to read more for everything but there sure are an aweful lot of options
17:22 < mizmo> thats the target user definition
17:22 < jadudm> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_base
17:23 < khane> i think for our purposes we're going to try and see if we can simplify as much as possible
17:23 < jadudm> #info target user base for the website redesign
17:23 -!- smooge [~smooge@97-123-77-253.albq.qwest.net] has joined #fedora-websites
17:23 < mizmo> some folks have given me feedback such that maybe this design is too corporate
17:23 < jadudm> khane: or, more specifically, see what kinds of revisions come out of a testing process
17:24 < mizmo> (oh ps, for #1, here's the link to the blog post going over the problems with get.fpo)
17:24 < smooge> Hi. site should be working better
17:24 < mizmo> thanks smooge !!
17:24 < jadudm> smooge: that's awesome. thank you!
17:24 < jadudm> smooge: our timing for this meeting was Murphy-inspired w.r.t. downtime. Thanks for the help.
17:24 < mizmo> i did a blog post really recently about how older versions of the front page's visual design were seen as being too 'corporate'
17:24 < keepd> We discussed the idea of the design being too corporate and we were curious what exactly that meant. Is that a bad thing??
17:24 < mizmo> http://mairin.wordpress.com/2010/09/03/fedoraproject-org-redesign-update/  <= you can see the old vs. the new there
17:25 < mizmo> well
17:25 < mizmo> let me show you something
17:25 < mizmo> :) it's going to be funny but maybe slightly inappropriate so i apologize in advance
17:25 < mizmo> http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=55201
17:25 < mizmo> this is some discussion on the latest design (the attempt at being less corporate) from the debian user forums
17:26 < mizmo> they are kinda bashing it :)
17:26 < mizmo> but keep in mind, look at debian.org to see where they are coming from too
17:26 < mizmo> there's a concern i think for authenticity
17:26 < mizmo> if the site looks too corporate, there are a few problem
17:26 < mizmo> #1 - people might assume fedora is not free (actually if you look at ubuntu.com they have a big ad either on the front or on the download page saying yes, yes it's really free)
17:26 < jadudm> Wow.
17:27 < jadudm> Do you own fireproof clothing?
17:27 < mizmo> hehe
17:27 < mizmo> i thought the mockup was hilarious though....
17:27 < mizmo> theres a unicorn man or somehting
17:28 < mizmo> #2 - if the fedora site looks too corporate, we might lose some of our authenticity - you how indie bands sometimes make it big then they 'sell out' and their music isn't as good either, it's kind of watered down. i think there's a big concern about fedora being perceived that way
17:28 < yaworsw> well i think that getting the message out that it is free could be done in the same way ubuntu does it
17:28 < yaworsw> say it's free in big bold text
17:28 < rdcrng> Well, think that one of the problems of communities like Debian's is that they are almost impregnable by anyone who doesn't consider themselves a computer expert / geek.
17:28 < mizmo> #3 - we want people to realize they can dive in and help too. if things look too polished, people might think there's no place for them
17:29 < rdcrng> Truth is most people put themselves into the "computer challenged" category
17:29  * quaid notes that the word "free" is overly loaded in this context.
17:29 < kauffmj> wow, just like paper prototyping!!!
17:29 < mizmo> i dont know if you folks have heard of this, but i've seen it in action and it's true - if you try usability testing using pencil sketches vs polished mockups, people are less willing to be candid about the more polished design
17:29 < quaid> how about, "Yes, zero cost!"?
17:29 < mizmo> so if you have a more polished website - maybe folks think you don't need help or people to join
17:29 < mizmo> quaid, the problem with zero cost is folks who don't want the 'software freedom' message to be lost get a bit upset
17:29 < rdcrng> Free refers not only to cost
17:29 < jadudm> "a bit" upset
17:29 < mizmo> rdcrng, that's 100% true.
17:30 < quaid> mizmo: I mean, in reference to the costing confusion
17:30 < rdcrng> Free as in liberation from corporate hold over software
17:30 < quaid> that you said Ubuntu solved by saying, "yes, it's really free" (iirc)
17:30 < mizmo> quaid, oh i know. but that's why it's not a simple solution to do
17:30 < mizmo> quaid, they probably care less about that kind of flak than we do
17:30 < yaworsw> well i bet the website would lose a lot of it's corporate feel if we simply removed some of the gloss
17:31 < rdcrng> agree
17:31 < quaid> well, if we say, "It's 100% free. What does that really mean?!?" and link out to the 2 explanations, that might work :P
17:31 < rdcrng> the old website has the simplicity
17:31 < rdcrng> just needs some navigational improvement
17:31 < yaworsw> mizmo, what is your absolute favorite part of the website?
17:31 < mizmo> but the current website it also doesnt really explain what fedora is, rdcrng
17:31 < jadudm> yaworsw: good question.
17:31 < mizmo> yaworsw, the current site or the redesign?
17:31 < yaworsw> redesign
17:32 < mizmo> hmm
17:32 < yaworsw> i suppose you can say your favorite part of the current site too, that wouldn't hurt haha
17:32 < mizmo> i think probably my favorite part of the redesign is the slideshow on the front page
17:33 < mizmo> right now we don't have a space like that to really highlight the awesome things we do
17:33 < mizmo> theres some wiki pages, but i think wikis are a bit intimidating for folks just wanting to learn the basics about waht fedora is and what makes it cool
17:33 < mizmo> so i think the slideshow is a good opportunity to get lots of great content out there - in a scoped-out, limited space so it doesn't overrun the website or overcrowd it either
17:34 < yaworsw> ahh there is a website i know of that does a slideshow thing that looks really nice but i can't think of the url
17:34 < hildebe> what are the subjects of the other slides?
17:34 < mizmo> my favorite part of the current website - well, it's nice that it's slim in size and fast-loading, but that's been a constraint that's caused it to kind of suck in a lot of other ways
17:34 < mizmo> hildebe, we haven't fleshed them all out yet, but we have some samples, one sec
17:34 < jadudm> we'll all have fiber soon, so speed won't be an issue.
17:35 < mizmo> hildebe, http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Website_redesign/Mockups/Www.fpo#Slideshow_Banners
17:35 < mizmo> hildebe, those sample slides use an earlier template
17:35 < yaworsw> anyway where i was going with that question is i read a book on creativity professor jadud gave me, in the book there was a portion about a web designer.  he said whenever he would get stuck designing a website we would remove his favorite part of the website and then try to move forward from there
17:35 < mizmo> but we were thinking maybe 5-6 slides: 1 to explain what fedora is, 1 to talk about our community, and 3 or 4 to highlight some interesting features
17:35 < mizmo> yaworsw, heh thats an intriguing idea
17:36 < yaworsw> is matt R here?
17:36 < jadudm> He had a meeting that he was afraid would run into the chat.
17:36 < rdcrng> hard to accept idea :D
17:36 < jadudm> he might not be.
17:37 < yaworsw> ah, he had some comments about the slideshow
17:37 < hildebe> I really think the slideshow is a great idea considering the target user, I don't think i could get behind the suggestion of removing it...
17:37 < jadudm> so, I'm going to bring us back around to our question.
17:37 < mizmo> rdcrng, i get where its coming from though. eg when i was designing the newer features mockup (i think the one in the wiki is a bit old at this point), i actually lost my source file and had to start from scratch for most of it, and i think it came out better for it
17:37 < jadudm> which is: what are the aspects of the site we're going to begin by testing.
17:37 < jadudm> it sounds like download is clearly an issue, and one of our teams should focus on that.
17:38 < khane> i say features as well
17:38 < jadudm> (we might try and cycle quickly through a couple of things, so we may hit more than 3 things... we're all experimenting with this process here)
17:38 < jadudm> khane: say a bit more?
17:38  * keepd Points that the Fedora Wiki down
17:38 < mizmo> well
17:38 < khane> it may not need as much work, but its important that we see what needs to be done
17:38 < yaworsw> hildebe: i agree but perhaps if we consider removing it we can find a better way to include that information. if we decide to remove it that does not mean that we can't decide to put it back
17:38 < mizmo> if i had to pick three things to test
17:38 < mizmo> that'd be most helpful at this point
17:38 < mizmo> i think probably they'd be
17:38 < mizmo> 1) the front page
17:38 < mizmo> 2) the downloads section of pages
17:38 < mizmo> 3) the community / join page
17:39 < mizmo> i think the features one is important to test too
17:39 -!- johnsog_ [~johnsog@aldenv158.allegheny.edu] has joined #fedora-websites
17:39 < mizmo> but its got a bit less meat to it i think
17:39 < jadudm> ok
17:39 < mizmo> our #1 task for users is downloading fedora and trying it out
17:39 < mizmo> our #2 getting access to support (but that design isn't ready yet :( )
17:39 < mizmo> #3 what is fedora, what's it about <= good for front page testing
17:40 < jadudm> that was where I was going to suggest we ask some questions -- what tasks are we aiming to support
17:40 < mizmo> #4 - join fedora <= community/join page
17:40 -!- johnsog [~johnsog@ewire23-142.allegheny.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
17:42 < jadudm> So, had you seen our revised question list?
17:42 < rosss> what needs refining in the community page?
17:42 < jadudm> http://wiki.rockalypse.org/HCD/Website_Testing_Needs
17:42 < jadudm> rosss: good question.
17:43 < mizmo> rosss, well looking at the mock - http://fedoraproject.org/w/uploads/9/95/Wwwfpo-redesign-2010_7-community.png
17:43 < khane> probably something that expresses that fp would like help from anyone, and that anyone can provide useful information
17:43 -!- zodbot [~supybot@fedora/bot/zodbot] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
17:43 < jadudm> Oh, booger. There goes our logs.
17:43 < jadudm> I'll pull them from my client.
17:43 < keepd> Were DOOMED Zodbot down
17:43 < khane> oh noes!
17:43 < mizmo> our goal is for folks to read this page and learn that fedora's put together by a community, and for them to understand how they can help out, and consider helping out
17:43 < mizmo> ugh
17:43 < yaworsw> maybe just moving that blue thing to the top of the page would help with that
17:44 < mizmo> yaworsw, well let me tell you why we put it on the bottom hehe
17:44 < yaworsw> basically saying there are tons of things people can do to contribute, do you fit into one of these categories?
17:44 < yaworsw> allrighty
17:44 < mizmo> we felt like it'd be rude or abrupt to tell folks to pick a task and start working on fedora first thing
17:45 < mizmo> so we thought maybe some enticement to want to join before that might be good
17:45 < mizmo> but im not sure we fulfilled that either yet :(
17:45 < jadudm> mizmo: in the world of libraries, there's a classic tension between "search" and "browse" functionality.
17:45 < yaworsw> yeah that makes sense
17:45 < mizmo> it may not come off that way at all, though
17:45 < keepd> I'm not sure it would rude, I think it would pull people into the I can contribute mindset. At least that is what it is for me
17:46 < mizmo> for a lot of these things,
17:46 < keepd> be**
17:46 < mizmo> we'll take a guess, mock it up, and ask around
17:46 < jadudm> it might be that, in our exploration of the community space, we can test multiple scenarios with some people, and see if we can help answer more questions about how best to use that space.
17:46 < mizmo> a lot of times i do this via blog post or irc
17:46 < mizmo> i didnt do that for the rudeness of asking people to join question though :)
17:46 < rdcrng> maybe instead of "find your role..." it could be "here what these people do..."
17:46 < rdcrng> and it could go to the top
17:46 < mizmo> that sounds like a great idea jadudm
17:46 < yaworsw> maybe even replace the cartoon people with real people who do those jobs
17:46 < mizmo> rdcrng, yeh that might work!
17:47 < mizmo> i like that idea too !
17:47 < yaworsw> sort of give the user the feeling that these really are real people doing this
17:47 < rdcrng> and all of those could lead to separate pages where in turn you're asked to join in that groups specific way
17:47 < mizmo> quaid, you'll be our model for content writer, right :) : ):)
17:48 < mizmo> today that section is this wiki page:
17:48 < mizmo> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Join
17:48  * hildebe looks at quaid
17:48 < jadudm> :D
17:48 < mizmo> so here's the content writer one http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Join#Content_Writer
17:48 < mizmo> we are de-wikifying with this mockup, lol
17:48 < jadudm> quaid doesn't use pencils, does he?
17:48 < jadudm> he uses Publican
17:49 < mizmo> hehe thats right
17:49 < keepd> defiantly needs the de-wikifying
17:49 < yaworsw> hmm what if we brought the slideshow to the community page and made the slides pictures of artists/writers/etc with a description of how average people can contribute
17:50 < kauffmj> that might work
17:50 < yaworsw> ofc then we lose the ability to display all of the potential roles at the same time
17:50 < mizmo> yaworsw, well we had a similar idea, I think schenjde has been working on the mockup for this -
17:50 < mizmo> to have interviews with a person in each role
17:50 < mizmo> similar to what we did here -
17:50 < jadudm> ooh...
17:50 < mizmo> http://spins.fedoraproject.org/ (scroll to the bottom)
17:50 < mizmo> now what we didn't consider was building that into a slide show
17:50 < rdcrng> mizmo, i like the interview idea
17:50 < jadudm> what about a short video interview with people in each role?
17:50 < mizmo> i think that's an awesome idea
17:50 < mizmo> right now spins loads up a random one (of two, lol) when you refresh the page
17:50 < mizmo> having a slideshow would be way better
17:51 < mizmo> jadudm, that's a great idea too!
17:51 < jadudm> all good ideas, all testable ideas
17:51 < rdcrng> ugh testing
17:51 < yaworsw> youtube fedora interviews = exposure = new users?
17:51 < rdcrng> just kidding
17:51 < mizmo> hehe
17:51  * jadudm thought rdcrng was kidding
17:51 < mizmo> yaworsw, i think so
17:51 < mizmo> i did a video on fedora 12 a while back
17:51 < jadudm> so, it sounds like we have two clear targets: downloads and community/onboarding
17:52 < mizmo> it got so many hits (something like 30k) that google kept emailing me to join their ad program
17:52 < khane> and we do have recording equipment
17:52 < jadudm> khane: EXACTLY
17:52 < yaworsw> haha
17:52 < mizmo> i dont know if its helpful
17:52 < jadudm> granted, doing video interviews involves a slightly different set of tricks
17:52 < rdcrng> maybe you guys could include a video of our class?
17:52 < mizmo> but an anthropology masters student studied fedora this past year
17:52 < mizmo> and she had a lot of infomration on our on-boarding process
17:53 < mizmo> rdcrng, that would be AWESOME
17:53 < jadudm> rdcrng: we could start with your life story
17:53 < mizmo> http://www.cyber-anthro.com/beta-an-exploration-of-fedora%E2%80%99s-online-open-source-development-community/  <= this is the anthropologists' report
17:53 < khane> haha
17:53 < rdcrng> haha
17:53 < yaworsw> lol
17:53 < hildebe> haha
17:53 < kauffmj> rofl
17:53 < johnsog_> haha
17:53 < mizmo> rdcrng, your life story from your wiki user page needs to be an xcd comic
17:53 < mizmo> xkcd
17:53 < jadudm> That's awesome. I wonder if we can get her thesis
17:54 < keepd> I think Rdcrng should be the picture for people person on the blue bar
17:54 < jadudm> #action get thesis from diana [@] cyber-anthro.com
17:54 < yaworsw> #link http://www.cyber-anthro.com/beta-an-exploration-of-fedora%E2%80%99s-online-open-source-development-community/
17:54 < rdcrng> i think we should stop here with how much exposure i get and talk about testable ideas
17:54 < mizmo> diana's report is a good example of how gathering data can really help with a design
17:54 < jadudm> :)
17:55 < yaworsw> professor jadud you are teaching a FS101 this semester aren't you?
17:55 < jadudm> mercy, yaworsw, I've got a reputation in this community
17:56 < jadudm> don't go runnin' around throwin out the 'p' word.
17:56 < hildebe> free test subjects?
17:56 < jadudm> i'm trying to fit in as a leet oss hacker
17:56 < yaworsw> lol
17:56 < khane> gotta be PC, its "participants" now
17:56 < yaworsw> sorry matt the black hat
17:57 < rdcrng> lol
17:57 < jadudm> yaworsw: yes. And, there might be other FS groups that would be willing/appropriate to work with us.
17:57 < mizmo> dont be too leet though, my first irc nick was in leet speek and i got laughed out of channels lol
17:57 < kauffmj> i could try to volunteer Cup's FS class, since i'm a peer leader
17:57 < rdcrng> maybe the FS course could be our "test subjects"
17:58 < yaworsw> mizmo are the mockups in HTML or are they just images at this point?
17:58 < mizmo> this kind of covers (i think) the kind of folks we're hoping to reach with the design, if that's of help: http://mairin.wordpress.com/2010/09/02/sweet-caroline/#comment-7292
17:58 -!- jadudm is now known as leetjadudm
17:58 < mizmo> yaworsw, they are just flat mockups at this point
17:58 < hildebe> that's what I was going to suggest, I feel like they'd be closer to the target user than a pro like Radu
17:58 < mizmo> the source is up on the wiki page if they need to be manipulated
17:58 < mizmo> and if you folks want to try out different ideas im happy to whip out change-o versions of mockups for ya
17:58  * keepd acknowledges 1337jadudm as chair.
17:58 < mizmo> if you want to try your hand at it, they'll all inkcape svg files
17:59 < mizmo> inkscape that is
17:59 < leetjadudm> mizmo: my goal is that we cycle rapidly through to hi-fi prototyping, but the big priority will be to do the low-fi mockups and testing
17:59 < mizmo> okay cool
17:59 < johnsog_> mizmo, is there any website usage data from the current fedora website?
17:59 < mizmo> some, one sec
17:59 < mizmo> so this is where you can access our awstats pages: http://fedoraproject.org/awstats/
17:59 < mizmo> http://fedoraproject.org/awstats/fedoraproject.org/
18:00 < yaworsw> #link http://fedoraproject.org/awstats/
18:00 < mizmo> i did a survey for download methods too, one sec
18:00 < leetjadudm> looks like the kind of traffic I get on rockalypse.org
18:00  * leetjadudm coughs violently.
18:00 < kauffmj> # link http://fedoraproject.org/awstats/fedoraproject.org/
18:00 < rdcrng> you wish :D
18:01 < mizmo> http://mairin.wordpress.com/2009/08/27/getting-fedora-survey-results/
18:01 < mizmo> that was a survey of users' preferred download methods (note the subject bias - *current* fedora users, not necessarily from our target market)
18:01 < mizmo> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics
18:01 < mizmo> some general fedora project statistics are available there
18:02 < leetjadudm> 20% bittorrent
18:02 < mizmo> like how many total downloads, how many contributors, etc
18:02 < yaworsw> #link http://mairin.wordpress.com/2009/08/27/getting-fedora-survey-results/
18:02 < leetjadudm> (is zodbot alive?)
18:02 < rdcrng> don't think so
18:02 < mizmo> leetjadudm, i think the admins put a bullet in its head
18:02 < johnsog_> zodbot seems to be dead
18:02 < leetjadudm> s'ok. I'll pull things out by hand later.
18:02 < keepd> zodbot had an accident
18:02 < leetjadudm> keep using the syntax: it will make my life easier later.
18:02 < mizmo> one of the sites they pulled down made zodbot go boom
18:03 < mizmo> those are pretty much all the stats i know about
18:03 < yaworsw> i suppose we could just make a quick text parser to take out the links and actions and whatever else we need
18:03 < mizmo> we try to use open source methods of gathering stats
18:03 < mizmo> so we dont use anything fancy like omniture
18:03 < leetjadudm> CTRL-F will work, too.
18:03 < yaworsw> doh
18:04 < leetjadudm> So, actually, flipping through the convo, I see three obvious spaces that we all probably think are good places to test:
18:04 < leetjadudm> 1. downloads
18:04 < leetjadudm> 2. community/onboarding (+ athro data of überness)
18:04 < leetjadudm> 3. front page / goal/task routing
18:04 < leetjadudm> (eg. you hit the main page and want to download, is it easy, etc.)
18:04 < rdcrng> jonathan said yes
18:04 < mizmo> yep yep!
18:04 < yaworsw> saints are up 7-0
18:04 < leetjadudm> how many of you are in Alden?
18:05 < kauffmj> radu and i are in alden 103
18:05 < johnsog_> there are 3 in 101
18:05 < yaworsw> i'm in the library
18:05 < khane> i'm in my house
18:05  * hildebe is at his apartment
18:05 < keepd> I'm in Alden
18:05 < mfody> im at my house
18:05 < kauffmj> where are you jamie?\
18:05 < keepd> 101
18:05 < leetjadudm> i love irc
18:06 -!- leetjadudm is now known as l33tjadudm
18:06 < mizmo> you folks know about /me
18:06 < rdcrng> will take me a while to gert there
18:06  * mizmo is stuck in irc. help! get me out of there
18:06 < rosss> change your name to zodbot, make me feel safer
18:06 < l33tjadudm> :)
18:06  * hildebe helps mizmo get unstuck
18:06 < l33tjadudm> I suspect that's considered poor form on these channels
18:06 -!- mizmo is now known as zodbot
18:06  * keepd 1337 **cough**
18:06  * zodbot ate your logs for lunch
18:06 < rosss> thx
18:06 -!- l33tjadudm is now known as jadudm
18:06 < zodbot> yum yum
18:06  * zodbot burps
18:06 -!- zodbot is now known as mizmo
18:06 < yaworsw> oh snap
18:07 < johnsog_> haha
18:07 < jadudm> you know, i've tried to have many a conversation with zodbot.
18:07 < jadudm> never have they been so entertaining.
18:07 < kauffmj> mizmo's a doppleganger
18:07 < mizmo> jadudm, yeh freenode threatens to kick you off in 30 seconds if you don't provide zodbot's nick password
18:07 < jadudm> sweet
18:07 < mizmo> nick theft is serious business on freenode
18:07 < mizmo> on efnet... they're enforced a bit... differently
18:07 < mizmo> :)
18:07 < jadudm> i introduced my freshman seminar to IRC this past week
18:08 < jadudm> a freenode op dropped into #allegheny because we all connected at once
18:08 < yaworsw> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr3S0ziqLus
18:08 < mizmo> ha nice
18:08 < rdcrng> that was our class
18:08 < yaworsw> sorry that took so long to find i think the joke is past at this point
18:08 < mizmo> heh that song rocks
18:08 < rdcrng> nice yaworsw
18:08 < mizmo> so
18:08 < jadudm> rdcrng: same difference
18:08 < mizmo> you folks have any more questions?
18:09 < hildebe> mizmo, you mentioned a fourth point for testing, "features"
18:09 < mizmo> ah right
18:09 < mizmo> let me pull upthe latest mockup, the one on the wiki is a couple versions old
18:09 < mizmo> https://fedoraproject.org/w/uploads/d/de/Wwwfpo-redesign-2010_1-features.png
18:09 < mizmo> the main feedback ive gotten on it is
18:09 < rosss> what is "tutorials" going to look like?
18:10 < mizmo> - wow awesome stuff!
18:10 < mizmo> - too long, didn't read "TL;DR"
18:10 -!- daMaestro [~jon@fedora/damaestro] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:10 < mizmo> rosss, so if you look at the front page mockup -
18:10  * mizmo shuffles over to grab it
18:10 < mizmo> http://fedoraproject.org/w/uploads/b/b7/Wwwfpo-redesign-2010_1b-frontpage.png
18:10 < mizmo> k
18:10 < mizmo> so under the 'what can you do with fedora?' header
18:11 < mizmo> see there's the, turn your friends into the hulk thing?
18:11 < mizmo> the 'tutorials' page is meant to be a listing of all those tutorials
18:11 < mizmo> and that space onthe front page will randomly load one of them
18:11 < yaworsw> hahaha i just noticed the istockphoto watermarks on all the images
18:11 < hildebe> cool idea
18:11 -!- zodbot [~supybot@fedora/bot/zodbot] has joined #fedora-websites
18:11 < mizmo> the tutorials we have now are
18:11 < mizmo> Build beautiful color palettes for your home and wardrobe Agave
18:11 < mizmo> Access your favorite apps with one click custom desktop launchers Tutorial Completed
18:12 < mizmo> Get organized and build a personal database Gnote Tutorial Completed
18:12 < mizmo> the hulk one
18:12 < khane> I have to run, I have to do some comp research before my meeting tomorrow
18:12 < rosss> thanks
18:12 < mizmo> heh yeh, we mean to replace those with real fedora user photos
18:12 < jadudm> khane: thanks. we're wrapping up here.
18:12 < khane> night all
18:12 < yaworsw> night
18:12 < mizmo> later
18:12 -!- khane [1890cf67@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.144.207.103] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
18:12 < kauffmj> goodbye khane
18:13 < jadudm> ok
18:13 < mizmo> tajidinabd, btw i just saw your tutorial content now, it's looking great
18:13 < jadudm> so.
18:14 < jadudm> i'd say that we've got stuff to pull apart tomorrow in class (as well as discuss readings), and we'll start drawing up battle plans and getting into things.
18:14 < mizmo> awesome :)
18:14 < jadudm> we'll use the mailing list (websites@) as well as this space to discuss things as we go.
18:15 < jadudm> so, we'll go into asnyc mode at this point, and I don't think that we'll try and do another group IRC chat, unless we decide it's useful/a good idea later
18:15 < mizmo> okie doke
18:15 < mizmo> do note im usually lurking in here during business hours for quick questions
18:15 < jadudm> any final comments from our end?
18:15 < mizmo> sometimes at night too
18:15 < yaworsw> i thought this was quite productive
18:16 < mizmo> yay
18:16 < kauffmj> a lucid conversation
18:16 < jadudm> righto
18:16 < jadudm> mizmo: thanks so much.
18:16 < mizmo> thank *you* all :)
18:16 < mizmo> im sure your work will be very helpful for fedora
18:17 < rdcrng> thanks mizmo and everyone else
18:17 < yaworsw> hopefully lol
18:17 < mizmo> we're really happy to have you all involved
18:17 < rosss> thanks, night all
18:17 < jadudm> well, i'm going to go do the reading for tomorrow at this point... so, thanks all for a good meeting, and i'll see you tomorrow
18:17 < mizmo> so welcome :)
18:17 < mizmo> later
18:17 < johnsog_> thanks everyone
18:17 < rdcrng> night
18:17 < johnsog_> bye
18:17 < keepd> night
18:17 -!- rdcrng [~rad@aldenv105.allegheny.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:17 < mfody> bye
18:17 < kauffmj> good evening colleagues
18:17 < yaworsw> see most of you tomorow
18:17 -!- rosss [~rosss@aldenv151.allegheny.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:18 -!- kauffmj [~kauffmj@aldenv106.allegheny.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:18 -!- yaworsw [8dc31ba4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.141.195.27.164] has left #fedora-websites []
18:18 -!- mfody [~Matt@dynamic-acs-24-144-203-247.zoominternet.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:18 < hildebe> adios
18:18 -!- keepd [~keepd@aldenv186.allegheny.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:18 -!- johnsog_ [~johnsog@aldenv158.allegheny.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
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18:18 < yaworsw> hey
18:18 < nb> hi
18:19 < yaworsw> were you here for that whole convorsation
18:19 < jadudm> yaworsw: yes?
18:19 < jadudm> me?
18:19 < yaworsw> oh'
18:19 < yaworsw> just going to remind you to copy + paste
18:19 < jadudm> yep
18:19 < jadudm> :)
18:19 < yaworsw> lol
18:19 < jadudm> good call, though
18:19 < yaworsw> on see you tomorow
18:19 < yaworsw> ok*