fedora-websites-20100909.log

16:57 < zodbot> Meeting started Thu Sep  9 23:57:58 2010 UTC.  The chair is jadudm. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.

16:57 < zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.

16:58 < jadudm> If I knew more about zodbot, I'd add other chairs. But, I don't.

16:58 -!- rdcrng [~rad@aldenv105.allegheny.edu] has joined #fedora-websites

16:58 < jadudm> #link http://wiki.rockalypse.org/HCD/Website_Testing_Resources

16:58 < jadudm> #link http://wiki.rockalypse.org/HCD/Website_Testing_Needs

16:58 < jadudm> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Website_redesign_2009_requirements#Tasks

16:59 -!- daMaestro|isBack [~jon@denver.beatport.com] has joined #fedora-websites

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17:00 < mizmo> jadudm, i'd pull up the wiki page on the meeting bot but, the wiki is down :(

17:00 < mizmo> which might cause some problems here too

17:00 < mizmo> (all the mockups are on it :( )

17:00 < jadudm> The wiki page came up for me. Do you mean fp.org/wiki is down?

17:00 < mizmo> yeh

17:00 < mizmo> the fpo wiki is down

17:01 < jadudm> Oops. See what you mean.

17:01 < jadudm> Perhaps it was cached.

17:01 < jadudm> MURPHY STRIKES.

17:01 < khane> dun dun dun

17:01 < jadudm> Well, this page is in my browser (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Website_redesign_2009_requirements#Tasks)

17:01 < kauffmj> lol

17:01 < mizmo> so the fedora wiki is in a planned outage and will be out for 2 hours

17:01 < jadudm> Should I stick it in an etherpad for us to see for the time being?

17:01 < mizmo> they just took it down

17:01 < jadudm> Awesome!

17:01 < mizmo> :-/

17:01 -!- daMaestro [~jon@fedora/damaestro] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]

17:02 < mizmo> i think smooge is going to try to bring it back up for us though

17:02 < jadudm> IN SOVIET FEDORA, WEBSITE COMES UP FOR YOU

17:02 < mizmo> heh

17:03 < jadudm> I pasted the website redesign 2009 requirements here: http://openetherpad.org/8CQ0kocfmC

17:03 < mizmo> awesome

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17:04 -!- yaworsw [8dc31ba4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.141.195.27.164] has joined #fedora-websites

17:04 < jadudm> I must have caught it just before it went down. So. Would you like a quick intro from who is working with you? Or, shall we take it as a given that there's a group from Allegheny here?

17:04 -!- ricky [~ricky@fedora/ricky] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]

17:04 < mizmo> whatever works!

17:05 < jadudm> Would the Allegheny crew mind pasting in a link note with a pointer to your user pages on the rockalypse wiki?

17:05 < mizmo> sijis_vacation <= is on vacation, he is our main developer on the project, and Jef (who is normally in here as Schendje) is in the netherlands so he's probably sleeping now :)

17:05 * mizmo <= Máirín Duffy, fedora design team lead & Red Hat interaction designer

17:05 < jadudm> #link http://wiki.rockalypse.org/User:Jadudm

17:05 < jadudm> I'm Matt.

17:05 < kauffmj> #link http://wiki.rockalypse.org/User:Kauffmj

17:05 < khane> http://wiki.rockalypse.org/User:Khane

17:05 < kauffmj> I'm Jonathan Miller Kauffman.

17:05 < khane> I'm Evan

17:05 < hildebe> #link http://wiki.rockalypse.org/User:Hildebe

17:06 < hildebe> I'm Eric Hildebrand

17:06 < yaworsw> http://wiki.rockalypse.org/User:Yaworsw

17:06 < jadudm> khane: the #link tells zodbot to include it in the transcript all special-like.

17:06 * johnsog <- #link http://wiki.rockalypse.org/User:Johnsog

17:06 < khane> ah

17:06 < johnsog> I'm Genevieve Johnson

17:06 < rdcrng> #link http://wiki.rockalypse.org/User:Rad

17:06 < keepd> I'm Jamie Keep: http://wiki.rockalypse.org/User:Keepd

17:06 < mizmo> yaworsw, where is salamanca? im from westerlo ny

17:07 < yaworsw> #link http://wiki.rockalypse.org/User:Yaworsw

17:07 -!- mfody [~Matt@dynamic-acs-24-144-203-247.zoominternet.net] has joined #fedora-websites

17:07 < jadudm> mfody: just dropping pointers to our user pages on the wiki.

17:07 < yaworsw> its about an hour and a half south of buffalo

17:07 < mizmo> ah okay

17:07 < mizmo> (westerlo is an hour+ south west of albany)

17:07 < yaworsw> sorry my wiki page is pretty bare at this point i'll make sure to update it much more soon

17:08 < mizmo> id show you my fedora wiki page but... :-p

17:08 < yaworsw> complete other side ha

17:08 -!- rosss [~rosss@aldenv151.allegheny.edu] has joined #fedora-websites

17:08 < mizmo> yeh my bro went to geneseo though so ive driven out your way sort of before

17:09 < jadudm> Cool. That serves as an attendance of sorts, too. :)

17:09 < mizmo> have any of you heard of / used Fedora before?

17:09 < yaworsw> haha

17:09 < jadudm> (We'll catch Matt and Sam before we're done.)

17:09 < rdcrng> I have been using it for 3 years.

17:09 < rosss> I'm here

17:09 < mizmo> wow awesome

17:09 < kauffmj> i used it once

17:09 < keepd> Sams here

17:09 < jadudm> #link http://wiki.rockalypse.org/User:Rosss

17:09 < hildebe> I have it Virtualboxed, yeah

17:09 < johnsog> mismo: i have worked with fedora last semester in a class with jadudm

17:09 < mizmo> rdcrng, i really like your user page lol

17:10 < yaworsw> i only use it in the labs at school but i have ubuntu installed on my desktop... i just need a monitor for it now lol

17:10 < rdcrng> Lol, thanks. Don't really know how to make intro pages.

17:11 < jadudm> We have a pretty savvy bunch overall, in one form or another.

17:11 < rdcrng> And here's my life story kind of pages aren't my favorite.

17:11 < jadudm> I'm not 100% sure how best to run the meeting, but we'll learn.

17:12 < jadudm> I guess I can say that we're keen to do our first round of learning on usability testing on the Fedora website, and I think we've got a fairly high degree of overlap between our observations and your top ten list.

17:12 < mizmo> oooh the wiki is back up i think

17:12 < mizmo> oh okay great

17:12 * jadudm does a wiki jig

17:12 < mizmo> well can you walk me through your process so far?

17:12 < yaworsw> could you post the like the link to the wiki where we put our notes from yesterdays class?

17:12 < jadudm> I think I did at the top. I'll repeat them:

17:12 < khane> #http://wiki.rockalypse.org/HCD/Website_Testing_Needs

17:12 < jadudm> Ah, thanks.

17:13 < yaworsw> ah that was before i got here

17:13 < jadudm> And the top ten from mizmo: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Website_redesign_2009_requirements#Tasks

17:13 < jadudm> I think we missed focusing on that in our conversation.

17:13 < jadudm> Anyone want to take a stab at our process so far?

17:14 < mizmo> it looks like you started with a whiteboard discussion - http://wiki.rockalypse.org/HCD/Website_Testing_Resources

17:15 < khane> we all pretty much agreed on no 1 from mizmo's list, that was a big part of our discussion

17:15 < mizmo> and did you look at the existing www.fedoraproject.org?

17:15 < jadudm> Right. Our process was first to identify resources that would help us with doing testing, and that morphed into discussion of the fp.o site.

17:15 < yaworsw> the redesign looks much better imo

17:15 < quaid> BTW, I threw a late and slightly random insight-driven email on the related thread on the mailing list:

17:16 < quaid> #link http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/websites/2010-September/008564.html

17:16 < jadudm> Our next step was to discuss with you needs/directions/focus.

17:16 * quaid leaves that for later and returns to le lurk

17:17 < jadudm> Our next step will then be to immerse ourselves in literature regarding testing, and start cutting our teeth.

17:17 < mizmo> okay cool

17:17 < jadudm> We can easily divide into groups of 3/3/4, having 10 people.

17:17 < mizmo> each group tests a chunk of the redesign?

17:17 < jadudm> Exactly.

17:17 < mizmo> okay cool

17:18 < jadudm> (btw, team: dive in wherever/whenever.)

17:18 < quaid> jadudm: coincidentally, we need some of that "about testing" material for the "Practical OSS Exploration" textbook - I'd like a feed of your reading/research list as it becomes available.

17:18 < keepd> *dives

17:18 < mizmo> it's irc, it's supposed to be funny & chatty lol

17:18 < khane> well, what are 3 areas that you feel need the most work?

17:18 * quaid hides mizmo's PSP

17:18 < mizmo> khane, in the redesigns?

17:18 < khane> yea

17:18 < mizmo> hmm let me think

17:19 < mizmo> so i know the download pages still need a lot of work

17:19 < mizmo> we have some folks who are .... picky.... and quite particular

17:19 < khane> haha

17:19 < khane> well, hopefully we won't dissapoint

17:19 * jadudm looks at rdcrng

17:19 < rdcrng> Yeah no kidding, we *almost* had a heated debate about it already.

17:19 < mizmo> so we did a big redesign of the download pages in our current template - it was released last may

17:20 < mizmo> and i literally got hate mail over the bittorrent link being hard to find :-p

17:20 < mizmo> whoops

17:20 < khane> we looked at the mockup pretty in-depth

17:20 < mizmo> i know there are some cases like that we're probably missing still

17:20 < mizmo> i did a blog post on it but haven't revisited those pages yet

17:20 < jadudm> do you consider download to be a space where you're happy with the design, or would you like us to put it through the paces?

17:20 < mizmo> oh please put it through the paces

17:20 < mizmo> we must be missing things

17:21 < mizmo> we were pretty aggressive in simplifying it

17:21 < mizmo> we ended up doing a patch a couple days after release for bittorrent

17:21 < mizmo> i think there are other things folks are sitll a bit ornery about in those pages

17:21 < mizmo> so

17:21 < mizmo> #1 is the download pages, i think they can still use work

17:21 < mizmo> #2 i would say is the visual design

17:22 < yaworsw> the more that i look at the features + screenshots page the more i feel like there is an overloading amount of information being thrown at the user

17:22 -!- biertie_laptop [~bert@fedora/biertie] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]

17:22 < mizmo> i think some of the issues with the visual design - well, i'm trying to appeal to fedora's (rather recently defined) target user

17:22 < mizmo> yaworsw, (that was going to be my #3 ) :)

17:22 < mizmo> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_base

17:22 < yaworsw> i like that it gives options to read more for everything but there sure are an aweful lot of options

17:22 < mizmo> thats the target user definition

17:22 < jadudm> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_base

17:23 < khane> i think for our purposes we're going to try and see if we can simplify as much as possible

17:23 < jadudm> #info target user base for the website redesign

17:23 -!- smooge [~smooge@97-123-77-253.albq.qwest.net] has joined #fedora-websites

17:23 < mizmo> some folks have given me feedback such that maybe this design is too corporate

17:23 < jadudm> khane: or, more specifically, see what kinds of revisions come out of a testing process

17:24 < mizmo> (oh ps, for #1, here's the link to the blog post going over the problems with get.fpo)

17:24 < smooge> Hi. site should be working better

17:24 < mizmo> thanks smooge !!

17:24 < jadudm> smooge: that's awesome. thank you!

17:24 < jadudm> smooge: our timing for this meeting was Murphy-inspired w.r.t. downtime. Thanks for the help.

17:24 < mizmo> i did a blog post really recently about how older versions of the front page's visual design were seen as being too 'corporate'

17:24 < keepd> We discussed the idea of the design being too corporate and we were curious what exactly that meant. Is that a bad thing??

17:24 < mizmo> http://mairin.wordpress.com/2010/09/03/fedoraproject-org-redesign-update/  <= you can see the old vs. the new there

17:25 < mizmo> well

17:25 < mizmo> let me show you something

17:25 < mizmo> :) it's going to be funny but maybe slightly inappropriate so i apologize in advance

17:25 < mizmo> http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=55201

17:25 < mizmo> this is some discussion on the latest design (the attempt at being less corporate) from the debian user forums

17:26 < mizmo> they are kinda bashing it :)

17:26 < mizmo> but keep in mind, look at debian.org to see where they are coming from too

17:26 < mizmo> there's a concern i think for authenticity

17:26 < mizmo> if the site looks too corporate, there are a few problem

17:26 < mizmo> #1 - people might assume fedora is not free (actually if you look at ubuntu.com they have a big ad either on the front or on the download page saying yes, yes it's really free)

17:26 < jadudm> Wow.

17:27 < jadudm> Do you own fireproof clothing?

17:27 < mizmo> hehe

17:27 < mizmo> i thought the mockup was hilarious though....

17:27 < mizmo> theres a unicorn man or somehting

17:28 < mizmo> #2 - if the fedora site looks too corporate, we might lose some of our authenticity - you how indie bands sometimes make it big then they 'sell out' and their music isn't as good either, it's kind of watered down. i think there's a big concern about fedora being perceived that way

17:28 < yaworsw> well i think that getting the message out that it is free could be done in the same way ubuntu does it

17:28 < yaworsw> say it's free in big bold text

17:28 < rdcrng> Well, think that one of the problems of communities like Debian's is that they are almost impregnable by anyone who doesn't consider themselves a computer expert / geek.

17:28 < mizmo> #3 - we want people to realize they can dive in and help too. if things look too polished, people might think there's no place for them

17:29 < rdcrng> Truth is most people put themselves into the "computer challenged" category

17:29 * quaid notes that the word "free" is overly loaded in this context.

17:29 < kauffmj> wow, just like paper prototyping!!!

17:29 < mizmo> i dont know if you folks have heard of this, but i've seen it in action and it's true - if you try usability testing using pencil sketches vs polished mockups, people are less willing to be candid about the more polished design

17:29 < quaid> how about, "Yes, zero cost!"?

17:29 < mizmo> so if you have a more polished website - maybe folks think you don't need help or people to join

17:29 < mizmo> quaid, the problem with zero cost is folks who don't want the 'software freedom' message to be lost get a bit upset

17:29 < rdcrng> Free refers not only to cost

17:29 < jadudm> "a bit" upset

17:29 < mizmo> rdcrng, that's 100% true.

17:30 < quaid> mizmo: I mean, in reference to the costing confusion

17:30 < rdcrng> Free as in liberation from corporate hold over software

17:30 < quaid> that you said Ubuntu solved by saying, "yes, it's really free" (iirc)

17:30 < mizmo> quaid, oh i know. but that's why it's not a simple solution to do

17:30 < mizmo> quaid, they probably care less about that kind of flak than we do

17:30 < yaworsw> well i bet the website would lose a lot of it's corporate feel if we simply removed some of the gloss

17:31 < rdcrng> agree

17:31 < quaid> well, if we say, "It's 100% free. What does that really mean?!?" and link out to the 2 explanations, that might work :P

17:31 < rdcrng> the old website has the simplicity

17:31 < rdcrng> just needs some navigational improvement

17:31 < yaworsw> mizmo, what is your absolute favorite part of the website?

17:31 < mizmo> but the current website it also doesnt really explain what fedora is, rdcrng

17:31 < jadudm> yaworsw: good question.

17:31 < mizmo> yaworsw, the current site or the redesign?

17:31 < yaworsw> redesign

17:32 < mizmo> hmm

17:32 < yaworsw> i suppose you can say your favorite part of the current site too, that wouldn't hurt haha

17:32 < mizmo> i think probably my favorite part of the redesign is the slideshow on the front page

17:33 < mizmo> right now we don't have a space like that to really highlight the awesome things we do

17:33 < mizmo> theres some wiki pages, but i think wikis are a bit intimidating for folks just wanting to learn the basics about waht fedora is and what makes it cool

17:33 < mizmo> so i think the slideshow is a good opportunity to get lots of great content out there - in a scoped-out, limited space so it doesn't overrun the website or overcrowd it either

17:34 < yaworsw> ahh there is a website i know of that does a slideshow thing that looks really nice but i can't think of the url

17:34 < hildebe> what are the subjects of the other slides?

17:34 < mizmo> my favorite part of the current website - well, it's nice that it's slim in size and fast-loading, but that's been a constraint that's caused it to kind of suck in a lot of other ways

17:34 < mizmo> hildebe, we haven't fleshed them all out yet, but we have some samples, one sec

17:34 < jadudm> we'll all have fiber soon, so speed won't be an issue.

17:35 < mizmo> hildebe, http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Website_redesign/Mockups/Www.fpo#Slideshow_Banners

17:35 < mizmo> hildebe, those sample slides use an earlier template

17:35 < yaworsw> anyway where i was going with that question is i read a book on creativity professor jadud gave me, in the book there was a portion about a web designer.  he said whenever he would get stuck designing a website we would remove his favorite part of the website and then try to move forward from there

17:35 < mizmo> but we were thinking maybe 5-6 slides: 1 to explain what fedora is, 1 to talk about our community, and 3 or 4 to highlight some interesting features

17:35 < mizmo> yaworsw, heh thats an intriguing idea

17:36 < yaworsw> is matt R here?

17:36 < jadudm> He had a meeting that he was afraid would run into the chat.

17:36 < rdcrng> hard to accept idea :D

17:36 < jadudm> he might not be.

17:37 < yaworsw> ah, he had some comments about the slideshow

17:37 < hildebe> I really think the slideshow is a great idea considering the target user, I don't think i could get behind the suggestion of removing it...

17:37 < jadudm> so, I'm going to bring us back around to our question.

17:37 < mizmo> rdcrng, i get where its coming from though. eg when i was designing the newer features mockup (i think the one in the wiki is a bit old at this point), i actually lost my source file and had to start from scratch for most of it, and i think it came out better for it

17:37 < jadudm> which is: what are the aspects of the site we're going to begin by testing.

17:37 < jadudm> it sounds like download is clearly an issue, and one of our teams should focus on that.

17:38 < khane> i say features as well

17:38 < jadudm> (we might try and cycle quickly through a couple of things, so we may hit more than 3 things... we're all experimenting with this process here)

17:38 < jadudm> khane: say a bit more?

17:38 * keepd Points that the Fedora Wiki down

17:38 < mizmo> well

17:38 < khane> it may not need as much work, but its important that we see what needs to be done

17:38 < yaworsw> hildebe: i agree but perhaps if we consider removing it we can find a better way to include that information. if we decide to remove it that does not mean that we can't decide to put it back

17:38 < mizmo> if i had to pick three things to test

17:38 < mizmo> that'd be most helpful at this point

17:38 < mizmo> i think probably they'd be

17:38 < mizmo> 1) the front page

17:38 < mizmo> 2) the downloads section of pages

17:38 < mizmo> 3) the community / join page

17:39 < mizmo> i think the features one is important to test too

17:39 -!- johnsog_ [~johnsog@aldenv158.allegheny.edu] has joined #fedora-websites

17:39 < mizmo> but its got a bit less meat to it i think

17:39 < jadudm> ok

17:39 < mizmo> our #1 task for users is downloading fedora and trying it out

17:39 < mizmo> our #2 getting access to support (but that design isn't ready yet :( )

17:39 < mizmo> #3 what is fedora, what's it about <= good for front page testing

17:40 < jadudm> that was where I was going to suggest we ask some questions -- what tasks are we aiming to support

17:40 < mizmo> #4 - join fedora <= community/join page

17:40 -!- johnsog [~johnsog@ewire23-142.allegheny.edu] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]

17:42 < jadudm> So, had you seen our revised question list?

17:42 < rosss> what needs refining in the community page?

17:42 < jadudm> http://wiki.rockalypse.org/HCD/Website_Testing_Needs

17:42 < jadudm> rosss: good question.

17:43 < mizmo> rosss, well looking at the mock - http://fedoraproject.org/w/uploads/9/95/Wwwfpo-redesign-2010_7-community.png

17:43 < khane> probably something that expresses that fp would like help from anyone, and that anyone can provide useful information

17:43 -!- zodbot [~supybot@fedora/bot/zodbot] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]

17:43 < jadudm> Oh, booger. There goes our logs.

17:43 < jadudm> I'll pull them from my client.

17:43 < keepd> Were DOOMED Zodbot down

17:43 < khane> oh noes!

17:43 < mizmo> our goal is for folks to read this page and learn that fedora's put together by a community, and for them to understand how they can help out, and consider helping out

17:43 < mizmo> ugh

17:43 < yaworsw> maybe just moving that blue thing to the top of the page would help with that

17:44 < mizmo> yaworsw, well let me tell you why we put it on the bottom hehe

17:44 < yaworsw> basically saying there are tons of things people can do to contribute, do you fit into one of these categories?

17:44 < yaworsw> allrighty

17:44 < mizmo> we felt like it'd be rude or abrupt to tell folks to pick a task and start working on fedora first thing

17:45 < mizmo> so we thought maybe some enticement to want to join before that might be good

17:45 < mizmo> but im not sure we fulfilled that either yet :(

17:45 < jadudm> mizmo: in the world of libraries, there's a classic tension between "search" and "browse" functionality.

17:45 < yaworsw> yeah that makes sense

17:45 < mizmo> it may not come off that way at all, though

17:45 < keepd> I'm not sure it would rude, I think it would pull people into the I can contribute mindset. At least that is what it is for me

17:46 < mizmo> for a lot of these things,

17:46 < keepd> be**

17:46 < mizmo> we'll take a guess, mock it up, and ask around

17:46 < jadudm> it might be that, in our exploration of the community space, we can test multiple scenarios with some people, and see if we can help answer more questions about how best to use that space.

17:46 < mizmo> a lot of times i do this via blog post or irc

17:46 < mizmo> i didnt do that for the rudeness of asking people to join question though :)

17:46 < rdcrng> maybe instead of "find your role..." it could be "here what these people do..."

17:46 < rdcrng> and it could go to the top

17:46 < mizmo> that sounds like a great idea jadudm

17:46 < yaworsw> maybe even replace the cartoon people with real people who do those jobs

17:46 < mizmo> rdcrng, yeh that might work!

17:47 < mizmo> i like that idea too !

17:47 < yaworsw> sort of give the user the feeling that these really are real people doing this

17:47 < rdcrng> and all of those could lead to separate pages where in turn you're asked to join in that groups specific way

17:47 < mizmo> quaid, you'll be our model for content writer, right :) : ):)

17:48 < mizmo> today that section is this wiki page:

17:48 < mizmo> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Join

17:48 * hildebe looks at quaid

17:48 < jadudm> :D

17:48 < mizmo> so here's the content writer one http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Join#Content_Writer

17:48 < mizmo> we are de-wikifying with this mockup, lol

17:48 < jadudm> quaid doesn't use pencils, does he?

17:48 < jadudm> he uses Publican

17:49 < mizmo> hehe thats right

17:49 < keepd> defiantly needs the de-wikifying

17:49 < yaworsw> hmm what if we brought the slideshow to the community page and made the slides pictures of artists/writers/etc with a description of how average people can contribute

17:50 < kauffmj> that might work

17:50 < yaworsw> ofc then we lose the ability to display all of the potential roles at the same time

17:50 < mizmo> yaworsw, well we had a similar idea, I think schenjde has been working on the mockup for this -

17:50 < mizmo> to have interviews with a person in each role

17:50 < mizmo> similar to what we did here -

17:50 < jadudm> ooh...

17:50 < mizmo> http://spins.fedoraproject.org/ (scroll to the bottom)

17:50 < mizmo> now what we didn't consider was building that into a slide show

17:50 < rdcrng> mizmo, i like the interview idea

17:50 < jadudm> what about a short video interview with people in each role?

17:50 < mizmo> i think that's an awesome idea

17:50 < mizmo> right now spins loads up a random one (of two, lol) when you refresh the page

17:50 < mizmo> having a slideshow would be way better

17:51 < mizmo> jadudm, that's a great idea too!

17:51 < jadudm> all good ideas, all testable ideas

17:51 < rdcrng> ugh testing

17:51 < yaworsw> youtube fedora interviews = exposure = new users?

17:51 < rdcrng> just kidding

17:51 < mizmo> hehe

17:51 * jadudm thought rdcrng was kidding

17:51 < mizmo> yaworsw, i think so

17:51 < mizmo> i did a video on fedora 12 a while back

17:51 < jadudm> so, it sounds like we have two clear targets: downloads and community/onboarding

17:52 < mizmo> it got so many hits (something like 30k) that google kept emailing me to join their ad program

17:52 < khane> and we do have recording equipment

17:52 < jadudm> khane: EXACTLY

17:52 < yaworsw> haha

17:52 < mizmo> i dont know if its helpful

17:52 < jadudm> granted, doing video interviews involves a slightly different set of tricks

17:52 < rdcrng> maybe you guys could include a video of our class?

17:52 < mizmo> but an anthropology masters student studied fedora this past year

17:52 < mizmo> and she had a lot of infomration on our on-boarding process

17:53 < mizmo> rdcrng, that would be AWESOME

17:53 < jadudm> rdcrng: we could start with your life story

17:53 < mizmo> http://www.cyber-anthro.com/beta-an-exploration-of-fedora%E2%80%99s-online-open-source-development-community/  <= this is the anthropologists' report

17:53 < khane> haha

17:53 < rdcrng> haha

17:53 < yaworsw> lol

17:53 < hildebe> haha

17:53 < kauffmj> rofl

17:53 < johnsog_> haha

17:53 < mizmo> rdcrng, your life story from your wiki user page needs to be an xcd comic

17:53 < mizmo> xkcd

17:53 < jadudm> That's awesome. I wonder if we can get her thesis

17:54 < keepd> I think Rdcrng should be the picture for people person on the blue bar

17:54 < jadudm> #action get thesis from diana [@] cyber-anthro.com

17:54 < yaworsw> #link http://www.cyber-anthro.com/beta-an-exploration-of-fedora%E2%80%99s-online-open-source-development-community/

17:54 < rdcrng> i think we should stop here with how much exposure i get and talk about testable ideas

17:54 < mizmo> diana's report is a good example of how gathering data can really help with a design

17:54 < jadudm> :)

17:55 < yaworsw> professor jadud you are teaching a FS101 this semester aren't you?

17:55 < jadudm> mercy, yaworsw, I've got a reputation in this community

17:56 < jadudm> don't go runnin' around throwin out the 'p' word.

17:56 < hildebe> free test subjects?

17:56 < jadudm> i'm trying to fit in as a leet oss hacker

17:56 < yaworsw> lol

17:56 < khane> gotta be PC, its "participants" now

17:56 < yaworsw> sorry matt the black hat

17:57 < rdcrng> lol

17:57 < jadudm> yaworsw: yes. And, there might be other FS groups that would be willing/appropriate to work with us.

17:57 < mizmo> dont be too leet though, my first irc nick was in leet speek and i got laughed out of channels lol

17:57 < kauffmj> i could try to volunteer Cup's FS class, since i'm a peer leader

17:57 < rdcrng> maybe the FS course could be our "test subjects"

17:58 < yaworsw> mizmo are the mockups in HTML or are they just images at this point?

17:58 < mizmo> this kind of covers (i think) the kind of folks we're hoping to reach with the design, if that's of help: http://mairin.wordpress.com/2010/09/02/sweet-caroline/#comment-7292

17:58 -!- jadudm is now known as leetjadudm

17:58 < mizmo> yaworsw, they are just flat mockups at this point

17:58 < hildebe> that's what I was going to suggest, I feel like they'd be closer to the target user than a pro like Radu

17:58 < mizmo> the source is up on the wiki page if they need to be manipulated

17:58 < mizmo> and if you folks want to try out different ideas im happy to whip out change-o versions of mockups for ya

17:58 * keepd acknowledges 1337jadudm as chair.

17:58 < mizmo> if you want to try your hand at it, they'll all inkcape svg files

17:59 < mizmo> inkscape that is

17:59 < leetjadudm> mizmo: my goal is that we cycle rapidly through to hi-fi prototyping, but the big priority will be to do the low-fi mockups and testing

17:59 < mizmo> okay cool

17:59 < johnsog_> mizmo, is there any website usage data from the current fedora website?

17:59 < mizmo> some, one sec

17:59 < mizmo> so this is where you can access our awstats pages: http://fedoraproject.org/awstats/

17:59 < mizmo> http://fedoraproject.org/awstats/fedoraproject.org/

18:00 < yaworsw> #link http://fedoraproject.org/awstats/

18:00 < mizmo> i did a survey for download methods too, one sec

18:00 < leetjadudm> looks like the kind of traffic I get on rockalypse.org

18:00 * leetjadudm coughs violently.

18:00 < kauffmj> # link http://fedoraproject.org/awstats/fedoraproject.org/

18:00 < rdcrng> you wish :D

18:01 < mizmo> http://mairin.wordpress.com/2009/08/27/getting-fedora-survey-results/

18:01 < mizmo> that was a survey of users' preferred download methods (note the subject bias - *current* fedora users, not necessarily from our target market)

18:01 < mizmo> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics

18:01 < mizmo> some general fedora project statistics are available there

18:02 < leetjadudm> 20% bittorrent

18:02 < mizmo> like how many total downloads, how many contributors, etc

18:02 < yaworsw> #link http://mairin.wordpress.com/2009/08/27/getting-fedora-survey-results/

18:02 < leetjadudm> (is zodbot alive?)

18:02 < rdcrng> don't think so

18:02 < mizmo> leetjadudm, i think the admins put a bullet in its head

18:02 < johnsog_> zodbot seems to be dead

18:02 < leetjadudm> s'ok. I'll pull things out by hand later.

18:02 < keepd> zodbot had an accident

18:02 < leetjadudm> keep using the syntax: it will make my life easier later.

18:02 < mizmo> one of the sites they pulled down made zodbot go boom

18:03 < mizmo> those are pretty much all the stats i know about

18:03 < yaworsw> i suppose we could just make a quick text parser to take out the links and actions and whatever else we need

18:03 < mizmo> we try to use open source methods of gathering stats

18:03 < mizmo> so we dont use anything fancy like omniture

18:03 < leetjadudm> CTRL-F will work, too.

18:03 < yaworsw> doh

18:04 < leetjadudm> So, actually, flipping through the convo, I see three obvious spaces that we all probably think are good places to test:

18:04 < leetjadudm> 1. downloads

18:04 < leetjadudm> 2. community/onboarding (+ athro data of überness)

18:04 < leetjadudm> 3. front page / goal/task routing

18:04 < leetjadudm> (eg. you hit the main page and want to download, is it easy, etc.)

18:04 < rdcrng> jonathan said yes

18:04 < mizmo> yep yep!

18:04 < yaworsw> saints are up 7-0

18:04 < leetjadudm> how many of you are in Alden?

18:05 < kauffmj> radu and i are in alden 103

18:05 < johnsog_> there are 3 in 101

18:05 < yaworsw> i'm in the library

18:05 < khane> i'm in my house

18:05 * hildebe is at his apartment

18:05 < keepd> I'm in Alden

18:05 < mfody> im at my house

18:05 < kauffmj> where are you jamie?\

18:05 < keepd> 101

18:05 < leetjadudm> i love irc

18:06 -!- leetjadudm is now known as l33tjadudm

18:06 < mizmo> you folks know about /me

18:06 < rdcrng> will take me a while to gert there

18:06 * mizmo is stuck in irc. help! get me out of there

18:06 < rosss> change your name to zodbot, make me feel safer

18:06 < l33tjadudm> :)

18:06 * hildebe helps mizmo get unstuck

18:06 < l33tjadudm> I suspect that's considered poor form on these channels

18:06 -!- mizmo is now known as zodbot

18:06 * keepd 1337 **cough**

18:06 * zodbot ate your logs for lunch

18:06 < rosss> thx

18:06 -!- l33tjadudm is now known as jadudm

18:06 < zodbot> yum yum

18:06 * zodbot burps

18:06 -!- zodbot is now known as mizmo

18:06 < yaworsw> oh snap

18:07 < johnsog_> haha

18:07 < jadudm> you know, i've tried to have many a conversation with zodbot.

18:07 < jadudm> never have they been so entertaining.

18:07 < kauffmj> mizmo's a doppleganger

18:07 < mizmo> jadudm, yeh freenode threatens to kick you off in 30 seconds if you don't provide zodbot's nick password

18:07 < jadudm> sweet

18:07 < mizmo> nick theft is serious business on freenode

18:07 < mizmo> on efnet... they're enforced a bit... differently

18:07 < mizmo> :)

18:07 < jadudm> i introduced my freshman seminar to IRC this past week

18:08 < jadudm> a freenode op dropped into #allegheny because we all connected at once

18:08 < yaworsw> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr3S0ziqLus

18:08 < mizmo> ha nice

18:08 < rdcrng> that was our class

18:08 < yaworsw> sorry that took so long to find i think the joke is past at this point

18:08 < mizmo> heh that song rocks

18:08 < rdcrng> nice yaworsw

18:08 < mizmo> so

18:08 < jadudm> rdcrng: same difference

18:08 < mizmo> you folks have any more questions?

18:09 < hildebe> mizmo, you mentioned a fourth point for testing, "features"

18:09 < mizmo> ah right

18:09 < mizmo> let me pull upthe latest mockup, the one on the wiki is a couple versions old

18:09 < mizmo> https://fedoraproject.org/w/uploads/d/de/Wwwfpo-redesign-2010_1-features.png

18:09 < mizmo> the main feedback ive gotten on it is

18:09 < rosss> what is "tutorials" going to look like?

18:10 < mizmo> - wow awesome stuff!

18:10 < mizmo> - too long, didn't read "TL;DR"

18:10 -!- daMaestro [~jon@fedora/damaestro] has quit [Quit: Leaving]

18:10 < mizmo> rosss, so if you look at the front page mockup -

18:10 * mizmo shuffles over to grab it

18:10 < mizmo> http://fedoraproject.org/w/uploads/b/b7/Wwwfpo-redesign-2010_1b-frontpage.png

18:10 < mizmo> k

18:10 < mizmo> so under the 'what can you do with fedora?' header

18:11 < mizmo> see there's the, turn your friends into the hulk thing?

18:11 < mizmo> the 'tutorials' page is meant to be a listing of all those tutorials

18:11 < mizmo> and that space onthe front page will randomly load one of them

18:11 < yaworsw> hahaha i just noticed the istockphoto watermarks on all the images

18:11 < hildebe> cool idea

18:11 -!- zodbot [~supybot@fedora/bot/zodbot] has joined #fedora-websites

18:11 < mizmo> the tutorials we have now are

18:11 < mizmo> Build beautiful color palettes for your home and wardrobe Agave

18:11 < mizmo> Access your favorite apps with one click custom desktop launchers Tutorial Completed

18:12 < mizmo> Get organized and build a personal database Gnote Tutorial Completed

18:12 < mizmo> the hulk one

18:12 < khane> I have to run, I have to do some comp research before my meeting tomorrow

18:12 < rosss> thanks

18:12 < mizmo> heh yeh, we mean to replace those with real fedora user photos

18:12 < jadudm> khane: thanks. we're wrapping up here.

18:12 < khane> night all

18:12 < yaworsw> night

18:12 < mizmo> later

18:12 -!- khane [1890cf67@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.144.207.103] has quit [Quit: Page closed]

18:12 < kauffmj> goodbye khane

18:13 < jadudm> ok

18:13 < mizmo> tajidinabd, btw i just saw your tutorial content now, it's looking great

18:13 < jadudm> so.

18:14 < jadudm> i'd say that we've got stuff to pull apart tomorrow in class (as well as discuss readings), and we'll start drawing up battle plans and getting into things.

18:14 < mizmo> awesome :)

18:14 < jadudm> we'll use the mailing list (websites@) as well as this space to discuss things as we go.

18:15 < jadudm> so, we'll go into asnyc mode at this point, and I don't think that we'll try and do another group IRC chat, unless we decide it's useful/a good idea later

18:15 < mizmo> okie doke

18:15 < mizmo> do note im usually lurking in here during business hours for quick questions

18:15 < jadudm> any final comments from our end?

18:15 < mizmo> sometimes at night too

18:15 < yaworsw> i thought this was quite productive

18:16 < mizmo> yay

18:16 < kauffmj> a lucid conversation

18:16 < jadudm> righto

18:16 < jadudm> mizmo: thanks so much.

18:16 < mizmo> thank *you* all :)

18:16 < mizmo> im sure your work will be very helpful for fedora

18:17 < rdcrng> thanks mizmo and everyone else

18:17 < yaworsw> hopefully lol

18:17 < mizmo> we're really happy to have you all involved

18:17 < rosss> thanks, night all

18:17 < jadudm> well, i'm going to go do the reading for tomorrow at this point... so, thanks all for a good meeting, and i'll see you tomorrow

18:17 < mizmo> so welcome :)

18:17 < mizmo> later

18:17 < johnsog_> thanks everyone

18:17 < rdcrng> night

18:17 < johnsog_> bye

18:17 < keepd> night

18:17 -!- rdcrng [~rad@aldenv105.allegheny.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving]

18:17 < mfody> bye

18:17 < kauffmj> good evening colleagues

18:17 < yaworsw> see most of you tomorow

18:17 -!- rosss [~rosss@aldenv151.allegheny.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving]

18:18 -!- kauffmj [~kauffmj@aldenv106.allegheny.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving]

18:18 -!- yaworsw [8dc31ba4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.141.195.27.164] has left #fedora-websites []

18:18 -!- mfody [~Matt@dynamic-acs-24-144-203-247.zoominternet.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving]

18:18 < hildebe> adios

18:18 -!- keepd [~keepd@aldenv186.allegheny.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving]

18:18 -!- johnsog_ [~johnsog@aldenv158.allegheny.edu] has quit [Quit: Leaving]

18:18 -!- hildebe [~hildebe@141.195.68.85] has quit []

18:18 -!- yaworsw [8dc31ba4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.141.195.27.164] has joined #fedora-websites

18:18 < yaworsw> hey

18:18 < nb> hi

18:19 < yaworsw> were you here for that whole convorsation

18:19 < jadudm> yaworsw: yes?

18:19 < jadudm> me?

18:19 < yaworsw> oh'

18:19 < yaworsw> just going to remind you to copy + paste

18:19 < jadudm> yep

18:19 < jadudm> :)

18:19 < yaworsw> lol

18:19 < jadudm> good call, though

18:19 < yaworsw> on see you tomorow

18:19 < yaworsw> ok*

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